Episode Title:

Ep 6 & 7: [Abridged episode & Full conversation] Taking A Leap of Faith, Finding Purpose, Quitting Singapore Airlines in Los Angeles for Social Work and Redefining Success with Dennis Teo

Description (Full Conversation):

Imagine this: you’re at the peak of your career.

You have a great job, maybe even a great boss, and you’re making good money. You’ve made it.

Most people would say that this is where life gets easier—you’re already successful, now all you need is a little more money and fewer hours at work and everything will be perfect.

But there’s one guy who didn’t think so. He quit his job and started over from scratch because he wanted to find greater purpose in what he did every day.

We wouldn’t blame you if you thought we were talking about Elon Musk when we said this—after all, he did tweet something about quitting his jobs and becoming an influencer—but no! It was someone else entirely: Dennis Teo!

You might not know who Dennis Teo is (or maybe you do), but if you think about it for a minute, it makes total sense: after all, who hasn't wanted to quit their job at some point? And who hasn't wondered what might happen if they did?

The story of Dennis proves that sometimes we have to take a leap of faith and go against what society expects from us in order to find our purpose and live our dreams!

Tune in to this podcast episode to learn more about Dennis and what made him decide to shift careers despite having a dream job.

Time Stamps:

(00:49) Introduction

(07:37) Dennis: “I wouldn’t call myself a success story”

(09:24) First role in Singapore Airlines

(14:26) First overseas posting - Bali

(20:58) Next stop: Houston, Texas

(24:26) Corporate downsizing and how to do it right

(30:02) Next stop: Los Angeles and the good thing about starting something new

(34:04) Where it all started

(47:07) Dennis: “I cannot have safety net”

(51:20) What makes a good boss?

(1:03:34) Your environment shapes your perspectives

(01:12:22) Plot twist and adjusting back to Singapore and Singaporeans

(01:20:00) Timing matters

(01:27:55) Advice on career switch

(01:33:36) Relook at our own definition of success

Episode show notes on https://www.johnlimcy.com/podcast-show-notes.

This podcast episode was recorded in Oct 2021.

About the host John Lim:

Currently based in Singapore, I’m a husband, father and a curious business and tech enthusiast. Bulk of my career so far has been centered around business development, technology, entrepreneurship and startups. I have made rather huge career switches across diverse and unfamiliar industries. You can learn more about my career journey here.

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Transcript for Ep 7: [Full Conversation] Taking A Leap of Faith, Finding Purpose, Quitting Singapore Airlines in Los Angeles for Social Work and Redefining Success with Dennis Teo

SPEAKERS

John Lim, Dennis Teo

Dennis Teo  00:00

Sometimes it's really about the leap of faith. You know, if you think and you believe in something, you might not have all the answers, you know, it might not turn out the way you want it to. But rather than five to 10 years, if I look back to say, "Should I have done that?" Take that leap of faith, and just see how it goes.

John Lim  00:20

Hi, welcome to another episode of On My Own Terms Podcast. My name is John Lim, and I'm the host. In this podcast, I speak with the unconventional career changes and risk-takers who took the roads less traveled. Here I discover the why and how the journeys and deep dive into how they navigate their careers and lives on their own terms. If you have ever felt nervous, jaded, or are currently languishing at your career life, this podcast is for you.  Allow me to introduce our guests today. He is currently customer success manager of ATPCO, a leading global provider of air travel data to airlines, travel agencies, and tech companies. Prior to this, he has spent 8.5 and a half colorful years with Singapore Airlines, starting out as a management trainee to stints as a station manager in Bali, to Area Manager based in Houston, Texas, US. He then spent the last one year plus of his Singapore Airlines career as a regional sales planning manager being based in Los Angeles, US, where he successfully set up and manages this new department and team of six staff. He did all this by age of 35. He is also a husband and father to an 18-month-old boy at this time of recording this podcast. He is also a friend. And we both went to the same junior college in Singapore. Thank you for making time today. And welcome to the podcast, Dennis Teo.

Dennis Teo  01:45

Hey, thanks, John. How are you doing?

John Lim  01:47

Can't be more thankful that you're spending this time with us. So just to give some context, right? Maybe you can tell us more about what you do and what does your company do at this point in time?

Dennis Teo  02:00

Sure. So I currently work for ATPCO, it's a privately owned organization based in the US. It's privately owned in the sense that we are sort of an industry body because of all of our board of directors like the airlines. So in that way, a lot of the work that we do, a lot of the products that we push out, are meant to benefit the travel industry. So we work very closely with airlines as well as our travel partners. That's how we try to link the whole eco-travel ecosystem together. So in my current role, I am a customer success manager. So I work very closely with our airline partners here in the Asia Pacific region to help them optimize the wage they use our solutions, talk to them about future strategy, if there are different business needs that they have in mind to see if we can actually build some tools that will benefit not just them, but maybe also the broader industry. Because sometimes, more often than not actually, you realize that when one airline takes away an idea, there are actually other airlines out there that have similar vein of thoughts. So a tool that we built could actually benefit a number of different airlines in industry.  So that's where I think our role is is top of the industry itself. Because we're privately owned, and the way that we are set up, we are in a way not for profit, because any profit that we earn, or any additional revenue that we do get in the year actually goes back to our board of directors, which are the airlines anyway. So it's a bit of a unique structure. But that's how are set up currently. And I've been in this current role since the start of the year. So are coming to the end of nine months already.

John Lim  03:52

So we know that your major clients are airlines, and for your role do you serve beyond just airlines?

Dennis Teo  04:00

My specific role actually, mainly is focused on airlines, but I get to deal with some of the travel partners as well. So some of the more well-known global distribution systems, some of the travel agents, and some of the OTAs are not extensive dealings, I'll be very honest with you, but I do get to interact with them.

John Lim  04:20

And as I did my research right on ATPCO, I understand that ATPCO is probably the leading player in this space.

Dennis Teo  04:28

I think we have a very significant position in this space itself, mainly because of our history. You know, we are about a 50s- 50 all company, were set up by airlines so that there is this trust within the ecosystem travel ecosystem itself that, you know, we are sort of a neutral body. We're not really out to make profits. We're ultimately the aim of our company itself, the whole very point of our existence is to create products that benefits everybody in the industry. So I think coming from that position, it gives us a little bit more credibility. And so partners are more willing to come to us and work with us about products and about our solutioning. So that's why I think we have maintained a very strong position in the industry itself. At the end of the day is about the value proposition that we can offer to our partners. And I think over the years, we have evolved to ensure that we keep up with the times and ensure that we meet the needs of the growing needs of our clients.

John Lim  05:30

So digressing a bit to your non-work-related aspects of your life, what are your passions outside of work? I know you're a new parent, like myself, our boys are one, two months apart from each other. Yeah, so what do you do outside of work?

Dennis Teo  05:46

You know, I thought a bit about this, you know, and interestingly, I think, I feel you can relate to this as well. But since my son came along, a lot of my time has revolved around things that he does, you know, like, on the weekends, a lot of time is just spent with family. So I bring him over to my parents' place. Sometimes we spend some time with my mother-in-law's side. As much as possible, we try to inculcate a love for nature for our son. So we bring him out for walks, let him explore the beach. So that pretty much takes up most of my weekends, to be honest. Yeah, you know, I kept thinking about this for a while trying to see, "Did I do anything else this weekend that I can maybe make it sound very interesting," but unfortunately, you know, it all of it revolves around my son so I'm sure you can relate.

John Lim  06:27

Of course, I can. Yeah, I think family and health I think these two right, have really become our priorities and if you can't take care of ourselves, then it's hard to take care for our loved ones. It's something that I've come to realize, right? Yeah, totally. Absolutely. I 100% can relate to all this now. Everything revolves around our children. And I'm sure you've gone through the period where the hour now even right, the sleep cycle is so important. The nap time. Everything's not playing Yeah, what time your son wakes up. And there wasn't there was a week we do. So. So yeah, yeah. Okay. So it's something that we have in common. I want to sort of bring us back to your very colorful eight-and-a-half years with Singapore Airlines. And I think it's also an interesting topic, given that now we are in the middle of a pandemic. And sort of air travel or aviation has kind of come to a more standstill. Now things are opening up, so there's good news for the industry. But tell us more about your years at Singapore Airlines. I think it was you're probably one of the first few jobs at Singapore Airlines. Yes?

Dennis Teo  07:35

Right. Right. Maybe before I start, I just want to preface a little just so that, you know, your audience will understand that. I wouldn't call myself or my story, a success story. I just want to make that very clear to everybody. But it doesn't mean that I'm a failure. I feel like I'm one of those that even though I tried something, didn't succeed at it, but I'm still around, you know, I'm still okay. So I think that's important for your audience to understand. It's not that it doesn't mean that you know, if you try something, if you don't, doesn't work out the way you want it to, you'll be viewed as a failure because, like, right now, I think we had a previous conversation about counting our blessings, like, you know, I still have a job or my family family is healthy. So I think it's important for  your audience to understand, you know, not everything might work out, but things will still be okay, you know, if as long as you make the effort.  So with that maybe I'll just talk you through about my journey with Singapore Airlines. Bear with me a little, it's gonna be a little bit late because I was there for about eight and a half years. It was actually my first full-time job. So when I graduated, I actually took some time to do some part-time teaching. So I was actually helping out at a childcare center during my university years as a part-time teacher in that sense because I graduated in the middle of the school year here in Singapore, the kids that were the childcare, they haven't completed their academic year yet. So I decided to see through to the end of December of the academic year before I took a step out into a first full-time job.  So I started with Singapore Airlines, actually, in the middle of 2010. This about a year after I left. I graduated from university. So in my first position at Singapore Airlines, I was handling one of our contact center vendors. They were based out of India at that time. So it was a quite eye-opening for me. I got to work and deal with people in the industry that I've never really given too much thought of. So I joined Singapore Airlines because I always had this love for traveling. You know, I really enjoy the experience of going on the flight and add the build-up to it, you know, very happy that you know when you're young When you're traveling, you're always going for holiday, something new. It's like an adventure. So I really enjoy that feeling. And that's what prompted me to join Singapore Airlines. So when I, when I went in maybe I had certain preconceptions about, you know, what my role will be very operational, you know, be working with beings that are actually involved in the aircraft itself. But when I was assigned to a position in vendor management, that sort of threw me off a little in the sense, but I think looking back, it was a good start for me, in the way that it helped me to manage my expectations, a little about what the airline industry was about.  And it also allowed me to open my eyes and a sense that the airline industry actually is a very big and wide industry that there are so many different types of roles involved. So by starting off in a position, or a role that I wasn't so familiar with actually helped me to better appreciate that. So I did our vendor management for about a year and a half before I moved on to special projects. So at the time, Singapore Airlines was embarking on a rather large project to migrate some of their systems. So I moved over to the project team towards the coming to the end of the project cycle itself, we were preparing for the launch at the rollout of the new system. So that took me about another year, after the system was successfully launched and rolled out, it was time for me to move on to another position because the project was over in itself. So following that, I actually moved to revenue management in Singapore Airlines. So that was, I was exposed to a different part of the business, more of the commercial side of the business previously, when the management was more, you know, internal customer, customer service related by revenue manifold was a different ballgame in itself, more on the commercial aspects of running. 

John Lim  11:57

So all this, it's under the pretext that you joined Singapore Airlines as a management trainee. Is that right?

Dennis Teo  12:04

Oh right, yeah. Yeah. Sorry, I forgot to mention that-

John Lim  12:06

And just to let our listeners understand, right? I know this is more than eight years ago. And what was the structure like? What were the terms like when you joined a management training program? I mean, every company does it differently. And for your particular case, was it like, was a number of years that you have to commit? Or you have to try it out? And what is the number of years per role? How many roles were you supposed to rotate to?

Dennis Teo  12:31

I think the Singapore Airlines management training program is not really unique. It follows quite similarly to most of the trainee programs out there, I believe. We start off with a position that is assigned by the company. Generally, on average, they will take you maybe about every two to three years. But there are some times where if you express an interest in a certain role, you understand a little bit longer, get a little bit more understanding or knowledge about the role, you can request to stay on a little bit longer. I have had some colleagues who stayed in roles for maybe four to five years, because it was something that after they started doing, they thought, "Yeah, you know, I really enjoyed this, I want to know more about it."  So on average, I will say three to four years will be a good timeframe before people are rotated. There is no limit to the number of roles or rotations that you get to enjoy during your time in Singapore Airlines. I think that's one of the good things. In a way, it also benefits a company because it exposes all of their staff to different roles. You never know when you might need to call on a new experience 10 years ago in a different role. So I think that's is a win-win for both sides. So for me, I follow pretty much the average path. So about maybe between two to four years, I moved to a different role. Some of it was a little bit shorter, because the one that I just talked about, the special projects, it was basically based on the project cycle. Once the project launch- system launch, there wasn't that particular role required anymore. So that's why I moved a little bit earlier.

John Lim  14:06

Got it. So vendor management for one and a half years, special projects, and then revenue and revenue management. And then what's next after that?

Dennis Teo  14:16

Yeah, so I was in revenue management for maybe about eight months to a- 10 months to a year around? I can't remember the exact number of months, but there abouts. So at that point in time, close to about the 10 or 11-month mark, I was very lucky I was offered a chance to move to one of our overseas offices in Bali, to actually lead the office there. And I thought that was a very good opportunity. I've always kept an open mind about working and living overseas. And I think timing-wise it worked out as well because I didn't have too many obligations at that time. My parents were still healthy, didn't have to worry so much and the position that they offered me was in Bali. And I thought that it all worked out because Bali's not too far away, you know, it's like a two-and-a-half-hour flight. So if there's anything urgent that comes up that I really need to fly back, it's actually not too bad.  So with that in mind, I decided to accept the position. So I moved to Bali in early 2013, yeah. So that was my first overseas posting position with Singapore Airlines. And I was in Bali for two and a half years, it was a, you know, I always tell people about Bali that, you know, when you get posted to Bali, you really can't complain. It's actually a great place to work, you know? But I have to admit, I know sometimes people get the preconception that oh, you know, the picture you just working at the beach, you know, enjoying a mojito sitting by the beach working. It's unfortunately not always like that, you know, I still work in an office. But the overall environment, the vibe was very Bali-like so it was truly a great experience for me. I had a good team there as well, you know, the staff they were very friendly, always looking out for me, always trying to help me out. So I can thoroughly say that I enjoyed my time in Bali. And I had a newfound appreciation and respect for the people in Bali after getting to know a little bit more about how they live their lives, some of the cultures that you know, as a tourist, you might not fully appreciate. But if you spend a little bit more time in a place, that's something that you, you can appreciate and understand a little bit more.

John Lim  16:35

Can I just interject here? Sure, among our friends, we just thought that you lucked out, man. I mean, the first overseas posting was in Bali is one of the most highly traveled to islands, you know, in Asia or even the world. Yeah, yeah. We've agreed. I mean, Singapore's best Singapore Airlines. And, yeah, we just thought you lucked out, you know, of all places Bali. I mean, you know, they can always be worse places. No, but you Yeah, I'm sure. So, congratulations on that. And I want to ask, like, everyone, probably, from my impression, right, before I knew that you went to Bali, as a station manager, I think that's what it's called right? Station Manager. Right. I have got friends who were from Singapore Airlines, but not flying of any sort. And the impression I got was that station manager has lot of power. It's very cool job. But at the same time, you're managing, basically, you are the front, you're the face of the airlines in that particular country or that city. And you as much as if things go, Well, you have an easy time. But if things don't go well, and to no fault of yours, then you're going to manage crisis centers- tell us bit more about the ugly side or the good, bad, ugly, more of the bad and ugly side of station manager role.

Dennis Teo  17:53

Right? Yeah, I think I think you, you hit the nail on the head with your description. As with any job that you take, there are responsibilities. You know, it's not always sunshine in a role, you know, you that were experienced some rain clouds as far as to learn how to deal with them. So even though I like I said, generally was a very good and knowledgeable time for me in Bali, there were some challenging times as well. One experience that I can share, not sure whether most of you recall, but I think it was about 2015, around, then there was an eruption of a volcano in Bali. So at that time, it caused quite widespread disruptions to the flights. And it was very challenging for us because the situation was very fluid at the time, you know, the authorities, they themselves didn't know, you know, like, when they closed the airspace, you know, when how much detail will you have.  So having to manage all of that, keeping in mind that, you know, you have so many passengers that were trying to get out, and they were stuck at the island. So there was a lot of-  it was a high-pressure environment during that time. And I think that's how most crises are. Importantly, I think, you know, in the heat of the moment, you don't really get to think a lot about what are the things that you learn from it, you just deal with it, you know, try to get through, not just day by day, hour by hour, minute by minute, just try to get through to the next 30 minutes, because that's my the next update that comes along. So that was a challenging time. I think we spent almost a week in that crisis mode of sorts. And thankfully, you know, even though I was the face in the sense of the company in Bali, either way, supportive and strong team behind me, you know,  I didn't have to do every little minute detail, my team took care of it. They also you know, along with the good keep the bad, you know, sometimes when people are frustrated- passengers are frustrated because of the lack of information, they tend to hold abuse. And you know, I cannot understand why, you know, there are certain frustrations But I take my hat off to the, to my team because, you know, despite being scolded, despite being abused, they still carry on to their jobs with even limited rest and sleep, you know.  There were times where we ended work at 2 am in the morning, and unfortunately, I told them, "Look, you know, I know it's not ideal, but we need you back at 6 am." And keep in mind that some of these people stay maybe 45 minutes away from the airport. So traveling to airport is already an hour and a half, they get back home shower, maybe catch an hour nap, and they come back to work fresh. So I think it was a very eye-opening experience for me. And I'm very thankful as well for the experience, to be honest, on hindsight, hindsight, I think we learn a lot, not just about myself, but also about leading a team, and also about managing and understanding people's expectations and emotions. So it was a very fruitful two and a half years for me in Bali. But by that time, you know, as with all the rotations in Singapore Airlines, it was almost time for me to move. And at that time, I was offered a position to move to Houston, in the US, Texas. You think about it is actually on the other side of the globe, so it's totally something very different, you know. And I'll be honest, at that time, I didn't hesitate to take on the job. A couple of reasons- I was excited about it because it's in a completely different part of the world. But there was one small aspect that was holding me back a little bit is that because it's on the other side of the world, timezone difference, and traveling time is a lot longer now. And my parents were a little bit older by that time. They were still healthy, to be honest. But you know, you always had that nagging feeling like, you know, what, if so, it even though I was very excited, and I didn't hesitate to accept the job, as I was doing my handover preparing to travel to Houston, I keep having this nagging thought at the back of my head, like, you know, did I make the right decision? You know, should I really prioritize my own personal desires over the fact that it might be tougher, or more difficult to communicate and visit my parents. So at the end of the day, I think it was important that I communicated, and I discussed this with my parents, you know. And I think that everybody has the same expectations, the understanding, it actually helps give me the peace of mind. My parents were like, you know, "Go, you know, go do it. You know, you're still young. You never know, when you get an opportunity like this. We're still healthy. You know, with technology nowadays, you can do video calls, phone calls." Yeah. So that should be a little.  And with that in mind, I moved to Houston- completely different experience for me, from beach island resort to Houston, which is a very, it's a large state, Texas itself. And things are very much spread out. One anecdote that I used to share my friends is when I first got to Houston, right? One of my colleagues told me, "Oh, okay, today, you know, we're gonna visit one of our partners. He's just nearby, you know." So in my mind coming from Asia, previously in Bali, and in Singapore, I thought, "Oh, nearby, just a 10-minute drive, because we're driving." After 30 minutes on the freeway, I looked over to him, I said, "You know, are we there yet? You told me nearby right?" He said, "Well, yeah, maybe just another 15 minutes away." So it took me 45 minutes to get to a client's office, and to them, that is nearby. So that was the first real cultural shock that I had. But after that, I think I adapted in the sense that I sort of grew to understand and appreciate, you know, this vastness in itself because the fact that there's so much land and so much space also means that there's a lot of beauty in the state. You know, you drive along the freeway, you see farms on your left on your right, you see clear blue skies. So different experience, but there is a beauty in that. So Houston was a, professionally for me, are very different experience because the market itself was significantly different from what I experienced in Bali. Houston, I think, for those of you who are familiar with it is a very important city for the oil and gas industry.  So there's a lot of corporate business, corporate travel that goes on between Houston and other parts of the world. So my focus professionally shifted from a lot of the leisure time of travelers to multi-corporate types of travelers. So in a way, I think it also helped to increase my exposure to different parts of the business. So all of this I think as- and I was in Houston for about a year and a half. And unfortunately, at that time, at the end of the- coming to the end of the year and a half, there was a decision made by the company to downsize and restructure the whole operations in the US. And because of that decision was made to close the Houston office. Because of that, it also gave me a new experience because I've never had to lay off staff before- it's never a good feeling. And I don't it, and I don't wish it upon anybody, you know, not on the person receiving the news or even the person who has to deliver it. Because a lot of times, I think we empathize a lot with the person receiving the news, and rightfully so. But if you look at it the other way around, it's also not easy for the person delivering the news. Because if you are an empathetic leader, you never want to tell your staff such bad news that you know, they might be losing their livelihood.  And some of the staff might have been working with your company for 20, 30 years. So the loyalty that they have shown to be rewarded in such a way is really cruel in that sense. Unfortunately, you know, as with any other roles, like I mentioned, earlier days, responsibility, you take the good and the bad. You know, you can't just cherry-pick and say I only want to do the exciting and fun stuff, but I don't want to do all of these very tough calls. So you had to-it was something that I had to do; wasn't easy, but I think what helped me was that if you deliver the message, even though it's bad news sincerely, and the person receiving it can understand that you are sincerely trying to help them out, even though it's bad news, I think they walk away a little happier.  They are first going to be sad, nobody's going to receive such news and the jumping for joy, you know, even though there might be as a severance package or retrenchment package. But at least I think they appreciate that you know, it was delivered face to face, I think that's really important. A lot of times a lot of retrenchments are done via email, they just send you a package. That's it, I think it's important to have a face to face competition, at least one on one to communicate, these are bad messages. So with that done, I actually had to lay off three of my staff. Thankfully, thankfully, I was able to secure them alternative roles within the company in a different part of the business as a alternative for them. So I think that helped us well. It wasn't what they were looking for, it wasn't what they were strong at, but I think they were grateful for the fact that, you know, we didn't leave them in the lurch. You know, we tried to help them by trying to find an available role for them- I wouldn't say suitable because it definitely wasn't the best use of their skill set. So with that done, I had to, you know, also learn how to settle a lot of administrative stuff, you know, learning to close on an office and settle all of the dailies that we had in the city for company. It's not something that you learned in school, unfortunately. Yeah.

John Lim  27:50

So allow me to the words that was in my head when you talk about firing people was a dignity, right? I think being able to do it with dignity, I think it's important. This, as you mentioned, this staff, this team members have been loyal to the company all these years. And I think, even if you have to deliver the message because the business has to go a certain way. I think treating people with respect and dignity, I think is important. And kudos to you. I think credit goes to you. I'm very sure you work hard to make sure that they will alternatives arrangement or alternative arrangements  for them. They may not like the other roles. 100% but at least it was an option for them. So I think kudos to you,   and also just recently, I also started to look at how companies treat people, right, in good times and bad times. I think that's very important. It speaks volumes of the management and of the company. So yeah, I'm glad you flew Singapore flight high in US. It was terrible news, this is wise, but I'm glad that you know, Singapore had you to do this. And all this go a long way, you know? And I can imagine when you are stuck in that situation, it was not the most pleasant thing to do, but yeah, I think kudos to you.

Dennis Teo  29:12

Yeah, thanks. Thanks. Thanks, John. And I think you're absolutely right. You know, the point about respect, I think there's something very important that I didn't touch on earlier, which is, you know, at the end of the day, you have to respect- treat the person that you're speaking to, with respect, you know. Respect the fact that they've given a good part of their life to working for your company. I think that's very important.

John Lim  29:33

And then after Houston, after you closed office in Houston?

Dennis Teo  29:37

So after I closed the office at Houston, I was- towards the end of my tenure there actually, for the maybe the last one to two months, I was in a little bit of limbo, you know, because there wasn't really a set role for me at that point in time. So, I actually thought I was going to be posted back to Singapore head office, you know. So I was mentally prepared for that, but just about a month before I had to officially leave Houston, my boss called me up one day to say that, "Hey, look, you know, we are- actually because of you we restructure, we are starting a new position and a new department in our regional office here in Los Angeles."  So he said that he thought I was a good fit for the role to help to build up this team from scratch. So he asked- he actually offered me the chance to move to LA. So I thought about it for actually a couple of days. And it was thankful- coincidental because he called me on a Friday, so I had the weekend. And it was, I think it was lucky coincidence, because I usually speak to my parents and my family on the weekends, because of timezone difference. So I actually had the chance to actually discuss this-  brought it up with my parents during one of our weekly video calls that I had. Because, you know, after having been away for one and a half years, actually, if you add Bali, almost five years, I was away from Singapore ready, I wanted to just get a gauge of how comfortable were they with me to continue to be away, pretty far away, you know. LA, even though it's maybe a little bit closer to Singapore, but it's still pretty far away. And meant- personally, I was prepared to tell them that, you know, "Look,  if you're not comfortable, honestly, I'm ready to come back. You know, I don't have to be overseas. At the end of the day, I think family is the most important to me." Thankfully, my parents, they communicated the same message to me when I went to Houston, they said, "You know, look, you're still young, you know, we are still healthy." It's only a year and a half, nothing much has changed. So they actually throw the question back to me to ask me to say, "Are you keen on the role? And do you think that it's something that you want to try?"  And honestly, I was keen, because it was going to be a new experience for me- I've never set up a new department before. I don't know how that will be. So I was keen to try it out. And I honestly told them that "Yes, this is something that I think I want to try." By the end of the day, you know, if you ask me between work and family, I always put family first. And at that point, they said, "You know, just go ahead, you know, just go do it. You know, if things happen, you know, you need to request to come back, you can always do that."  So with that in mind, I accepted the change. And I- instead of coming back to Singapore, I actually moved immediately from Houston to LA. So in LA, I was tasked with setting up the new department, it was a small department, not too many staff, I think total- I started off with, let me count. One, two,  seven staff. So it's a  small department, but it was a good experience for me because in a way you sort of get a clean slate. Sometimes when you go into a role, you know, you have a lot of baggage about, you know what people have done in that role, what are the expectations of the role, but when you start off in a new position in a new department, you can sort of map out how you want it to be.  You don't have to worry about any baggage or any previous experience. It was great because I had a very supportive boss, he had open-door policy, his office was actually just down the hall from mine, you know, just maybe a 30 seconds walk. So many times I just walked in to ask him, you know, "Can I consult you on this? You know, what do you think if I do this." He was very open about suggestions because it was a new department. So he said, you know, "Just run with it. If you think it's gonna work, try it out." So it was an enjoyable time for me. And LA itself is not a bad place to live. You know, the weather is fantastic, you know, you get good beaches, you know, things that you see in the movies, I can confidently say, it's not too far off. I had a very good experience, so in LA, I was very grateful and lucky in the sense that because my office was based near the airport, and the airport is actually very close to the beach. And just because of that I was put up in a place that was close to the office. And by extension, because it's close to the office, it's close to the beach. So I get a lot of the good weather, easy access to the beach, so I cannot complain anything about it. The role itself was interesting for me, I learned a lot about a different part of the business, setting up a new department.  But it was maybe about three or four months after I moved to LA when there were a few weekends. I was just you know, having a coffee just enjoying my just reading a book. But there was this nagging thought that crept up on me, which is that you know, you've been in Bali, you've been in Houston, now in LA, I've been away from Singapore for maybe five to six years. I'm in my mid-30s already- early 30s already at that time. Is this something that I see myself doing for longer-term? So I think that was when it first started. It was just a nagging- nagging thought. It wasn't anything like you know, something bad what happened, you know, they got me to think about the disable. I have just one of those things that came up. And I'm not sure about your audience or even yourself, but initially, I classified it as like a midlife crisis. I don't know whether I was exaggerating, but you know early 30s- oh yeah, maybe this is what the life crisis feels like.  I didn't really think too much about it, try not to overthink it. It was there, I thought about it, but I carry on. So for about the next six months, I continued to do my work, you know, enjoy my time there. But every now and then, you know, you keep having this thought, sometimes it comes up in the smallest little things, you know, like, you have a conversation with a friend, you hear about what they're doing, or you talk to family, hear about developments going on in Singapore, somehow you tie it back to you know that that thought that you have- "Oh, you know, that's quite interesting. Do I want to try that out?" So these are some of the small little questions that came to my mind. But I think the more I thought about it, the more I realized that I needed to look at things very holistically. Professionally, there might be a lot of things that you want to do with your life. But I think as all of you know, life itself is not just about work, you know, there's a very large part that is family, that is your personal time, that is your own free time- what do you want to do with those? You know, should you just make decisions purely based on professional reasons, and neglect the other aspects of life? And I think, because thinking about the other aspects of life, brought me back to a little bit of reality, in a sense. Because the few questions that  I thought about what our life outside of work is, you know, I intend to get married soon, I was going to start a family. Financially, would I be comfortable taking risks at this time? I mean, a lot of people, I think, John, you can probably appreciate yourself that when you make a decision to get married, you know, it's like another phase of life, which comes with a lot of different commitments, both financially and emotional commitments as well, because you have a larger family not to work with compared to when you're single. These thoughts keep playing in my mind to say that, you know, I don't have a terrible job. You know, I enjoy my job-

John Lim  36:57

Hang on, hang on. You had a dream, okay, Dennis. You had a dream job. And I want to put it in context, right? Because you were single. And I think late 20s, you join Singapore's best airlines, best airlines in the world. And you got to travel, be based overseas to Bali, to Houston, and to US, to LA, and all this, you grew right, career-wise. And also, as a person, you grew through your job, right? You had to do different things- things that you didn't learn from school. Chances- this opportunity that you probably wouldn't get if you were based in Singapore office, for example. So I, in my opinion, at this point in time, in your career, I just thought you had the dream job. Not many people at that stage of life could experience those things that you were experiencing. Yeah?

Dennis Teo  37:44 [should be 37:54]ai

Yeah, I don't I don't disagree. And you're right, you know, maybe, maybe I should have been a little bit more grateful in the sense that it was, in a way a dream job to a lot of people. And I really had no complaints, you know, to be very honest at work. That was why I think it took me a long time to think this through a lot of these issues. And I think if it would have been different, of course, if there were nastiness at work, a lot of negative experiences, maybe there will be a larger push factor. So personally, for me, there wasn't any push factor for me, all the while. It was maybe more of a pull factor. But even then it was, you know, a light pull, it wasn't like a really strong somebody pulling me to come back to Singapore. So that's why I think it took me a very long time to actually crystallize this thought- I kept thinking about it on and off.  So three months, six months, and towards the end when I was really close to making a decision, I probably personally, I didn't realize that I was close to making a decision. It wasn't so I set myself a target to say like, "Oh, you know what, after a year, I could make a call, you know, yes or no." I think I just wanted to let things play out to see how I really thought. And it sort of came naturally, in a sense, because when you have this nagging feeling, at least to me, it doesn't go away. Because unless you can properly address it, which I felt like, you know, throughout my time thinking, it wasn't properly addressed, you know. So it kept nagging at me a little, and the more I thought about it, it got to a point where I said, "You know, look, maybe I need to weigh the pros and cons more clearly." Previously, it was very, you know, just off my mind. I'm thinking like, "Oh, you know. Yeah. This. This" But maybe it's time to really formalize it, you know- just sit down, if it helps write it down, or let's list out what are the pros and cons of the different approaches. So I took some time to actually do that, to actually think it through and it wasn't just like a one-weekend kind of exercise. I think, if I recall correctly, it took me at least a month or maybe four or five weekends to actually come up with these pros and cons. I actually waited-

John Lim  39:51

Let me, let me jump in, right? You were in LA, near the beach and on a weekend I suppose you spent little time at the beach. And you said that the all these nagging, nagging feelings now what is what was the alternative? What was the slight pull factor that you're thinking of that you had to draw a pros and cons, pool options? Are there more than one option?

Dennis Teo  40:11

Yeah, I think I didn't really think about the number of different options that I had as an alternative. But one thing that was a pull factor was that I kept asking myself if I really wanted to continue working in a corporate business. I think that was something that I questioned myself a fair bit. I wanted to understand and really think through whether I see purpose in it. I think purpose was one word that really kept coming up to me, you know. I want to find purpose in those things that I do at this stage of my life. So do I see that in my current role? And can I see myself achieving or getting that sense of purpose if I carry on in my role? So I think that was one of the key themes that kept reoccurring to me. Purpose- that was something that was very important to me.   In terms of alternative, I think that's where I sort of started picking up on you know, like, if I can't find purpose in a corporate job, where else can I find purpose in? What kind of roles and that started to get me to just on and off, on my own time, just read a little bit more about different industries. And I came across the social enterprise industry. I think a little a little bit of it was because of my previous experience, right from the start, if you recall, once, after I graduated from university, I started off with a childcare as a part-time teacher. So I think that was a little bit of that attracted me to the fact that I actually, you know, that was an industry or a little bit of way for me to find purpose, so that I can give back to society, contribute back to society. So maybe that is an option. Now, what exactly in that white, gray, generic term of social enterprise social work? What kind of roles do I want? I honestly didn't give it too much thought. But that was something that I felt like, no, no, maybe I can find purpose in that. And that was, I think, coming back to your point, which is where I have to decide the pros and cons. Do I say that I want to switch industries now because I think I find greater purpose in that compared to what I'm doing?  So there were, of course, like I mentioned, you know, the professional reasons for it. So I had to consider the personal reasons for doing so. So I listed all of this out. Wasn't very formal,  I didn't write it down, I put it on my phone, you know, just to think it will help me to, to actually better visualize it. And I actually had a lot of conversations with my fiancee at that time. So I think because if we're going to get married, any kind of such big decisions have to be made jointly. And it's important that I got my wife on board with me, I felt. Because it will be terrible if she was against it and I still went ahead to do it. Because you know, firstly, when you do it, you're going to be worried about your professional work, whether you might actually get what you want. Secondly, if personally, you're also having struggles with your family, because of your decision, this is actually a terrible experience, I had thought I will be terrible if I couldn't get my wife on the same page. And to be very honest, if my wife would have told me that, "No, I think, you know you shouldn't do this. You know, just stay safe, you know, continue in your job, you have no real push factor we financially we're gonna need, we're gonna have more commitments", I would have agreed before and just stayed on, to be very honest. But-

John Lim  43:28

I just want to jump in that I think- I don't know about you, but I mean, this thing about karma, right, I think the fact that you have dealt, at least in professional settings, there are people with respect and dignity. And now you've got the blessings of a parents who say, hey, go ahead, you know, they're still healthy, do what you want, and your interests or professional interests, should be at the forefront should be a priority for you. And then you also got your life partner to be aligned with you. So I'm not religious by any chance, but I just think that sometimes what we do, what we end up doing comes as also a blessing or even sacrifices of our loved ones. You said that if your wife would have said no, to what you were thinking to the alternatives to quitting this great fast-track career that you're on, you would have stayed on at Singapore Airlines.

Dennis Teo  44:19

Yeah, I would have. I don't think I would have done what I did so very thankful that my wife was supportive. I think she understood that you know, I don't make a spur of the moment decisions, especially for key decisions. So I think she appreciated that I probably given this a lot of thought. And the fact that I was bringing it up to her for discussion means that I sort of have an idea of what I might want to do. And I think she understood that she appreciated it. And I mean, likewise, you know, I have to say that everybody's circumstances are different. I was lucky in the sense that my wife had a pretty good job as well. So you know, she was comfortable in a job- we had that luxury, I'll be very honest, I think personally, it was a luxury to be able to do something like this. Now, not everybody might be able to do the same thing, because they might have different commitments.  So I think it's important to let your audience know that my experience might not be reflecting for everybody else. But it's something that, you know, they can think about and is doable. So coming back to my personal experience, so after I discuss with my wife, she sort of gave me her blessings. I didn't pull the trigger immediately, to be very honest, I still took maybe about two or three weeks to really think through to say that, you know, is this what I want? Look at my finances, look at my plans for the next one to two years. And I think it's important for me to also share that something that was I think, helped give me some assurance was that I had to manage my expectations. You know, if I was thinking that, Oh, you know, if I quit, I go back immediately, I'm gonna get another job in the field that I want to, I think I'll be very slowly disappointed with what actually happened. But I actually told myself that look, I tried to think of the worst-case scenario, which is that, you know, I might not get what I want, maybe a year or two, that I might be in the wilderness a little, you know, maybe doing odd jobs here and there just to pass the time while I try to find something I like, would I be ready for that? Can I accept that? And I think I came to the conclusion that that was okay. And it was a risk that I was willing to take because sometimes it's really about the leap of faith. You know, if you think and you believe in something, you might not have all the answers, you know, it might not turn out the way you wanted to, but rather than five to 10 years and you look back, to say, "Should I have done that?" Take that leap of faith and just see how it goes, knowing full well that we have tried to consider all of the different reasons and the different situations already. Keeping everything in mind, looking at it holistically. So that was when I decided that I'm going to do this. I'm going to take some time off and try to find purpose in a different industries. 

John Lim  46:56

Question. Question. Question. So just to encapsulate what were going through your head and what the conclusion that you that arrived right from all this thinking is that you were not unhappy at work, yeah? There were no push reasons from work. There wasn't also any real pull factor, you don't know exactly what it's your next option, or your next destination is going to be, but you knew that you had to take action on leaving the corporate environment. Now, how about the option of like, we heard you about talking about starting a family and getting married, how about moving back to Singapore with the same company? That should buy you more time, at least it gives you the opportunity to be back with your loved ones in Singapore. And while you do that, while you get resettled back in Singapore, that gives you more time to look for alternative industries or other industries out there. Hasn't that come as an option for you?

Dennis Teo  47:49

Yeah, it did. You know, you're right. You know, that was one of the things I did consider. And I'll let you know why I actually put out that option eventually, because, and this is just my personal- me speaking personally, I think that is a very pragmatic approach to take. And I think most people who have chosen that path for me, I felt like there was a little bit of a safe option. It's just still within my comfort zone, you know, I might not choose to actively push myself to try a different industry, if I took that route, because you don't you have the safety of, I have a job and I'm close with my family. Without a real strong pull factor. I might not push myself to take that leap. I have to really cut the cord in a sense, and really put myself in a very uncomfortable position. And when I'm in that position, then I'll be pushed to try to pursue what I really want to pursue. So that was why I actually at the end of the day chose not to go with that option.  And, you know, interestingly, you brought it up, that was something that my boss actually suggested to me, you know. To maybe just to come back a little when I made the decision to actually tend on my resignation, it was very tough. I actually struggled with it for a couple of weeks about how I want to communicate and deliver that message to my boss because he was a good boss, very supportive, I had a good environment. So it's never easy to do something like this. So when it came time to do it, I actually startled quite a few a bit when I was trying to tell him that I wanted to leave the company. And he offered me the exact same thing that you said, you know, like, you know, maybe go back to Singapore first have some time to think about your family. Yeah, I actually told him, You know, I really thought that I appreciated the offer. But I don't think that is something that would actually satisfy me. And I didn't go into details about why but I did tell him that I feel like I needed to take that leap in the sense that I cannot have a safety net behind me. With that safety net behind me. It will in a way prove to be in a sense for me, you know that you won't really have the urge or the motivation to try something new. So I told myself that cannot be the case. And I shared that with my boss and it wasn't an easy decision, but he accepted my resignation. And with that came the end of my time with Singapore Airlines after eight and a half years.

John Lim  50:00

Was it also because you were afraid that you might change your mind after you get resettled, like in Singapore with comfortable safety net, whilst having a job?

Dennis Teo  50:12

That's a good question. I don't think that thought actually crossed my mind. It was really very much focused on the fact that the safety net would maybe in a way, maybe hold me back a little.

John Lim  50:24

Got it. Sometimes- I raised that because maybe sometimes I felt it on my own that if you do not- because humans are social creatures, right? So we also, we may behave differently in different environments. And sometimes what I felt from your words were that you wanted to create the environment that you had to do something about it, rather than still settle back in ambiguous situation, and you felt that there wasn't enough for you to push you to do something else. So I just felt that it takes self-awareness to know what kind of person you are and to know what kind of environment you will thrive in, that will be good and conducive in certain situations.

Dennis Teo  51:07

I think I think you're absolutely right. Self-awareness is probably the word you know. You have to really understand yourself, you know, what works for you. So I think that's important. That's an important thing to consider (inaudible).

John Lim  51:20 [WHAT MAKES A GOOD BOSS]

I want to also zoom in on the fact that you felt that it was difficult to have that conversation with your boss, to tender your resignation because he was a good boss. And tell us more about that, like, how was he a good boss? What are the things that he did or that happened that made you feel that way at a point in time?

Dennis Teo  51:40

Yeah. So interestingly, it was actually, when I was in LA, it was actually my second time working for him, and having him as my boss. When I first moved to revenue management in Singapore, and he was actually my boss at the time. So it was my second time around with him. And he has always been a very supportive boss like I mentioned, open-door policy. You know, we have lunch together, we chat about when, you know, things outside of work, you know, very open conversations, you know, even sometimes about work matters, you know, he shared me his personal thoughts about certain things as well. So I think we had that rapport. And I think one important thing that maybe I didn't realize at that point in time, but over the years, I sort of realized is that he gave me a, you know- he trusted in me, and I think, you know, it's something that you probably, it's not very explicit, but you sort of when you have that level of trust that you know, you know, your boss trust you to do certain things, you'll feel more confident, you'll feel happier at your work. So I think he gave me that trust, and which allowed me to try in my role, and, you know, not just talking about my boss, but Singapore Airlines has the whole like you mentioned, you know, what a lot of people would think of as a dream job, I was given very good opportunities, I have nothing bad to say about my time in Singapore Airlines. They gave me wonderful opportunities to learn professionally and personally to develop. So some people might feel I'm a little bit ungrateful for giving all of that up. But at the end of the day, I think it was important for me to find purpose in the work that I wanted to do at that time.

John Lim  53:15

Yeah, thanks. And that is not the end. But I want to address the part about the boss, right. And it, first of all, I do not think that you're ungrateful, I think everyone has- every individual has their own- his own dream, journey, and destiny, right? And a lot of people find out about that via trial and error. Sometimes it may take someone a couple of bad jobs to know, a couple of bad bosses to know who is a good boss. And coming talking about boss, I asked specifically about the boss, because I think it's probably a sentiment that many of us may feel that good bosses are hard to come by. And I think this is another saying that I also very much agree with is that people don't leave their jobs, they leave their leaders. So when it comes to push factors, it's not so much about a company or the role, but a lot of it because of the environment or their bosses or their leaders. So and I want to ask this, I want to dive in a bit deeper about your relationship with your boss, what makes you think that he trusted you that much? Was it anything that you did to reciprocate his faith in you?

Dennis Teo  54:24

I think it wasn't any one or two major things. It's sort of all the small little things you like, for example, you know, if there are certain things that I wanted to do, you know, just just, uh, you know, go ahead, try it out. For some of these small little things, I think, personally, I felt that he was trusted me that you know, to just go and run with it to see how it works. H had certain tasks for me, you know, he's just gave me a very short brief about you know, what's required, asked me to think about it, come up with some ideas. So he doesn't micromanage me, and he gives me responsibilities. So I think these are the small little things that gave me that sense of confidence and trust that he had in me.

John Lim  55:04

And I want to add, right that, correct me if I'm wrong, I think Singapore Airlines is big organization. And it's probably rather conservative if that's a word to use. And I think to find a leader, like your boss, who was able to let you take certain risks, I think it's not common. Would you agree?

Dennis Teo  55:24

Yeah. I mean, I like to say is a big company I can't speak for, in general terms, but for those people that I've worked with, the boss that I worked with, it's not common, I won't say that he's the only one that that allows me to take risks. There were other bosses that were of this similar vein of thought, but he's probably one of those that are a lot, we probably because he also knows me, he have worked with me before, he knows what I can produce, in that sense. He knows my working style. So I think that helps in the sense.

John Lim  55:55

It's a two-way street, right? Because I am just (inaudible) right? And to enjoy your experience to like, find out what makes a good leader tick, right? I think people, we would have encountered a few bosses, and probably we manage teams. And I think, to me, my personal take is that its management, it's always all leadership. It's always art and science. And yeah, I just wanted to dig in your brains about like, what makes a good leader? And I would say that from there, I think is a two-way street, right? You must have demonstrated, right your abilities through other tasks that allows him to feel more comfortable to let you take risks, and he probably also know from your personality, right, because we have all this like off work, conversations, lunch, and dinner, probably, that you also got to know you as a person beyond just his employee and he probably also knows what would motivate you what would drive you at your work. So I think- I must say that not every leader, not every manager takes the initiative to want to have outside work relationships with employees.

Dennis Teo  56:57

Right. Yeah, I think I think you're right. You know that it takes initiative, and there are some times as a leader, I will see that the initiative doesn't have to be very time-consuming. It doesn't mean that you have to spend X number of hours as an employee outside of work every week or every day. It could just be you know, lunchtime, having a quick- or just a quick cup of coffee, you know, regularly. It doesn't have to be something that is time-consuming or very intensive. So I think that's something I learned, establishing rapport doesn't have to be structured, or have to be very time-consuming. You know, it's sometimes its little things that add up to it. And I think, um, you know, one other thing that you touched on, which I wanted to add is that you probably as a leader, you probably want to have what you see is a bit of art, a bit of science in the sense that not everybody takes the same approach the same way. So what he did with me, may have worked for me, but may not have worked for somebody else. So it's probably not a one size, fit all kind of thing. And I think that's where the art comes in. So you have to really understand the person. And I think that's where like you mentioned building that rapport sort of helps you to get to a better understanding of what makes that person tick. What are his motivations, and that's where you try to use and try to communicate or speak to some of these motivations a little bit better?

John Lim  58:21

So help us picture you when you were in LA, on the weekends, or even at work. What were your thinking process, like? And there's one word that you use earlier about purpose. So can you tell us more about purpose? And was there anything that triggered this thought process about purpose? Bring us into your life at that point in time.

Dennis Teo  58:45

At that time, you know, I've been working for about seven years already in the corporate world. And you know, along the way, you probably hear stories about your friends, what are they doing, you read about and you're you meet other people you know, during your working life, I'm sure you can understand that. You meet a wide variety, a diverse group of people, especially for me, when you know I had the opportunity to work in different places, different countries, you get to experience different lifestyles and meet different types of people, not just within a country, but from foreigners with different perspectives on life. So I think all of this actually played a part. I won't say there was one single thing that, you know, was a lightbulb moment for me, maybe it's a combination of all of these experiences and you know, things that I read the stage of life that I'm at, which probably got me thinking about, like purpose in life. Maybe it was also at the age, you know, I don't know, like the early- the mid-30s, a little bit of a mini-crisis on so yeah, I started questioning myself about the future, like what I wanted to do. Maybe not even for the next 20 30 years or so, the next five to 10 years, could I see myself being in the same role? I think that was the first question that I asked myself. Do I see myself continuing in this? And another question that was closely related to this was looking at my boss, you know, like, can I envision myself doing something like he's doing eventually, I mean, if, if I had ambition, I would probably want to achieve what he has achieved. So that was probably a good role model in the sense of what I can accomplish if I continue to stay on. So I think those questions got me thinking.  It wasn't like, you know, when I had those questions, immediately I had the perfect answer. I think I've struggled a little bit about what exactly would my answer be, you know, I've vacillated between one perspective to another, you know, yeah, you know, I think I can see myself doing this, or maybe not in the next five to 10 years. So it took a while. I think the one thing that I would recommend is to give yourself pressure if you're trying to make such a decision because it's definitely not something to be taken lightly. And you don't want to make spur-of-the-moment decisions when it comes to something like this. I think you really want to give it time. The reason why I say is because there might be certain days or certain weeks where you just had a terrible week at work, you know, everything went against you, your boss had to make certain decisions that you didn't agree with, but it's not reflective of the overall relationship or environment that you had at work. So you shouldn't use your most recent experience, affect your decision about something like this. So I tried to take my time. And it just came to a point where I felt like, you know, the word purpose was very, very important to me,

John Lim  1:01:44 (maybe cut the previous part to here to zoom in on purpose)

Why do you feel that purpose spoke out to you? Why do you care so much about purpose? You're living the highlife, so to speak, you're not married then. You're flying high in your career, at the very least, I'm sure you were putting the money, you were comfortable with your income? Why not just go out? And you know, have a bowl of a time. Right?

Dennis Teo  1:02:05

Definitely. You know, if you ask me, maybe when five years before that, I will probably say yeah, you know, I just want to do enjoy the experience. I'll be honest, I don't really know if there's one or two particular reasons why that thought came to mind. But it's probably a combination of things like when you read about things in the world, you hear about, you know, somebody you have close friends doing, you hear about what are some of the things that are happening in the community that you're living in, that may be sparks that thought in your mind. So for example, you know, in the US there are a lot of philanthropies, there are a lot of foundations that help people. And even in Bali, as well, you know, I got to work with a couple of organizations that were in a way trying to give back to society. So it wasn't, you know, the very straightforward type of giving back in the sense, like, some of these groups were like art groups, you know, they organize yoga classes, they organize art events for the masses, you know, to bring them to the villages, or they help local artisans, in a way showcase their products. So I guess it wasn't really a, you know, a social work, per se kind of thing. But all of these interactions probably got me thinking about outside additional purposes I'm trying to look for in my life when it comes to work.

John Lim  1:03:34

I hear a few things from my end, which is that I think your interactions, the fact that you're all based overseas, in a very different culture- and that's already a few years, right in the making with this moment when you had this moment in your life. And the fact that due to your work, you had to interact with people of different cultures, different perspectives, and they will of all sorts, I get the sense that this mixture of interaction with other people, and the pure fact that you're not in Singapore, or that you were not in Singapore, contributed to you having such perspectives.

Dennis Teo  1:04:10

Yeah, I think that's a fair assessment, to be honest. Now that I think about it, and then I look back at it, I think, yeah, that's, that sounds fair to me, like a reason why I had all of these thoughts and why it bubbled up.

John Lim  1:04:23

Yeah, and humans are social creatures. After all, we don't always act independently, right? No, man's an island. And we're always end result of all our social interactions. There's this line that comes to my head, right, that sometimes you need to get lost to find yourself, right? It sounds cliche, and then you were halfway across the globe from your birthplace. You realize that through others, you kind of follow yourself via the purpose that you're talking about. Tell me about your next step. So you know, that you want some purpose, and you also talked about that rather you got your blessings from your fiance back then, to take this leap of faith, and you just thought that you want to cut the cord, right? You do want to be in such a safe environment, and you want to put yourself in that uncomfortable position to move ahead with a life.

Dennis Teo  1:05:15

Right? I wouldn't say it was one particular moment in time. But I think after a while, I sort of realized that you know, my thoughts were leading towards a certain direction, and it didn't change even after a couple of weeks. Like, you know, sometimes, like I mentioned earlier sometimes, because of work, you know, your thoughts might move from one direction to the other. But I, I came to the realization after a while that, you know, yeah, I think this is, this is my, my perspective. Now, I don't think things are going to affect it, you know, whether it's work or family. So, that was when I decided, and, you know, I, like you mentioned after speaking with my fiance, and getting a blessing, you know, I think that that was a bit of a relief for me, it allowed me to really just focus on my thoughts, and have the confidence to make the decision that I wanted to make.  So with that in mind, I decided that, okay, I think it's time. To be fair, I still try to manage the time a little in a sense, because there was some work commitments that I had to fulfill first. So I tried to map it out such date, or I tendered my resignation after I completed these commitments. So in a way, maybe I could have left earlier, or maybe I could've left later but ultimately, there's this bit about my work responsibilities. So when the time came, it was a tough day for me, because I decided to only speak to my boss at the end of the day when there were less people around in the office, you know, and usually, at the start of the day, your mind is very focused about you know, what I'm going to achieve today, what are the things I want to get through, so I didn't want that to, to affect anybody's mood and every everybody's thoughts.  So I decided to at the end of the day, but as you can imagine, you know, when you decided already that you're going to do something, to have to go through a whole day and try not to show that you're going to do something like this is definitely not easy. But I think I got through it, because it was a busy day, thankfully. So before I knew it, you know, I look at the clock, I'm like, oh, yeah, it's about time. And I had butterflies in my stomach, to be honest when I walked into my boss's office, and I told him that I needed to, I wanted to speak with him about certain things. So yeah, and that was when I mentioned to him that I'm thinking of leaving, I did tell him share with him the reasons why I wanted to do so.

John Lim  1:07:45

Yeah. So fast forward to- when you arrive in Singapore when you came back, with all your suitcases, what next do you do? How do you go about starting the job search, if you did that? What do you do after you landed in Singapore?

Dennis Teo  1:08:03

Yes, I got back to Singapore. Actually, my plan at that time after I tendered was that I wanted to take a break first. I didn't want to start a job search immediately, mainly because I wanted to just take some time to myself and really think through what I wanted to do because I did have an idea of the direction I wanted to go in when I tendered my resignation. But I didn't have anything specific in mind. So I wanted to take some time off, take a break, you know, as well after nine years of work, and really think through what I wanted to do. So when I got back, I actually got married first, and then took a couple of months off, just to do nothing in the sense, you know. Think, read, you know, relax a little, exercise. So I took a four-month break and that was when I actually started to look around and explore what were my options. And I knew I wanted something in the social work or social enterprise world.

John Lim  1:09:00

How you went about applying? How do you apply? How many jobs do you apply? Walk us through that journey.

Dennis Teo  1:09:08

So I did, you know, research, like any other job searcher would do. Use some of the job recruitment sites, even go to specific companies' website to try to apply for jobs that I- are companies that I thought would appeal to me. Sadly, I think, at least for me, sadly was that a lot of these companies are not private, both private and public. I'll start with the private ones. So the private ones typically- firstly, they didn't respond. Secondly, if they responded, they actually indicated that they were looking for people with experience in this field, which came as a little bit of a surprise to me. I'll be honest, because maybe I was naive, in a sense, I actually thought that you know, there was a lack of people who want to join this this type of industry. So you know, they wouldn't be so picky, in that sense, maybe I'm using the wrong word but yeah, I thought that maybe it was a bit picky. So I was a bit taken aback and surprised by the responses I got from the private sector-

John Lim  1:10:11

Let us know what kind of roles that you applied for? So I think that gives context.

Dennis Teo  1:10:17

Yeah, right. So I didn't look for any one specific role. So I tried to consider and because based on my background, in many commercials, and customer service, I tried to apply for roles that maybe had some relation to that. So maybe like a business development manager, like partnership manager, even things like a program manager. These were things that I tried to apply for. I know that you know, some roles really needed core competencies or particular skill sets, which I didn't have. So to be fair, I didn't want to waste anybody's time to apply for those.

John Lim  1:10:55

Let me go back and dig in further, right? This role that you play in the private sector and feel of an industry of like social work or such social enterprise with these roles, were they entry-level? Were they midlevel? I think that helps to give the context. Right. And my follow-up question to that would be like, were you prepared to enter this new sector at the same level that you left your previous company? How do you adjust your expectation around that as well?

Dennis Teo  1:11:23

Yeah, so I think right from the off, I understood that you know, I was prepared to take any kind of a pay cut. I didn't expect to be paid handsomely, firstly, because I didn't have any experience in this area. And I know that if you're going into this industry, money shouldn't be the main driving factor. So right from the offset, I was already had in mind that I wasn't going to be paid as well. And that was fine with me. So in terms of the jobs that I applied for, I think I will say they were maybe entry to mid-level, I didn't try to reach too high, because I knew that it wasn't realistic.

John Lim  1:12:01

Got it. Thanks. Thank you. And so you talk about the private sector, and mostly didn't reply to you and these roles that you applied for weren't exactly above the expected years of experience that you had anyway, you were expecting a pay cut anywhere from a previous role. So now, you were on about the public sector.

Dennis Teo  1:12:21

Right. So for the public sector, I am back for a couple of roles in the few agencies. I actually got an interview at some of them. Surprisingly, when I got to the interview, I sort of got similar kinds of feedback. So the first thing that the interviewers were a little bit surprised or couldn't really understand was, why I wanted to take a break after I left my previous role. So I think a lot of them struggle to understand why I left my previous job without securing another job already. And I was prepared to do something like that. And frustratingly, for me, it took me a fair amount of time in those interviews to actually explain this part of things rather than, you know, talk about how I feel I can really contribute to the role, which, I mean, personally, for me, it was frustration, because I don't think it really mattered why I left a previous role without another job. I think, if you ask me when I interview a candidate, I'll be more interested in how he can contribute to the role. But that's just my perspective, to be fair. So it was frustrating for me, because I felt like they got hung up a lot on that first step, on that part. And even though I felt that at the end of the day, the overall interview went okay, I will say it went fantastic, they rejected me to be fair.

John Lim  1:13:38

And that's why I asked you so much about what was going through your head. And then one of the things I alluded to or I was suggesting is that because of your interactions, because of the fact that you are based overseas for a number of years now. You met people who let different kinds of life different aims in life, people want to give back in different ways. And this exposure is not what a typical Singaporean in Singapore would, is used to. Right. So your narrative, your perspectives, it's shocking, I mean, to probably the average Singaporean, right?  And I don't know, what was the age range of the people you spoke with in the interviews. But I, I would think that they're probably older. I mean, to be a manager right at the point in time. And I just think that it sounds bizarre. And I mean, when I first heard your story from friends, it was also a big question of why would you do that? Like I was taught, I thought it was a push factor, right. Maybe you missed home a lot, yet awakening, but I think, too many Singaporeans, this could sound bizarre, simply bizarre, right? You will not in a terrible place, you were in a lovely place. So I just, I just want to add the perspective that I know you probably have gone through this already, it's been a few years now. So I just want to add that probably the average Singaporean living their lives in Singapore, they just feel that what you did was probably even to certain extent, irresponsible, reckless that you left a job like that without securing a job. And I don't know whether I speak for every single person here. But at least from your story, I will say that it sounded bizarre to people who have never been exposed to other social circles, other set of people. 

Dennis Teo  1:15:19

Yeah, I think I think you're right, you know that it's probably a difference of perspective and difference of experiences in that sense. So, you know, even though I was frustrated at that point, on hindsight now, after that, you know, when I think about it, I think I don't place any blame on anybody. Maybe I should have considered that, but these are things that I learned along the way to be very honest. I didn't, I didn't realize this, and this came up. So I treated all these as learning experiences. And if you ask me now, maybe I should have tried to try to explain and help them understand a little bit more about this without being so frustrated. My initial reaction was frustration, which maybe wasn't the right response. Like you mentioned, you know,  my experiences and my perspective will probably be quite different from what an average Singaporean would have gone through. So I needed to look at things from other perspectives as well, rather than just my own. So yeah, but these are all the learning that I took from my experience. 

John Lim  1:16:14

For sure, for sure. I 100% agree with you that you never try. You never know. Right? And I mean, how would you ever expect that such a question? Right? And how would you expect it the focus of the interview was about why you left with his role, right? And not your insurance, and what you can contribute to the role that you're interviewing for? So I noticed the sidestep switch gears a bit. I'm just curious for those people who are listening and want to find out more about or interested in securing something in this social industry sector, like what are the portals that you use to apply?

Dennis Teo  1:16:46

For the public sector, I use the gov-

John Lim  1:16:52

mycareersfuture.gov.sg

Dennis Teo  1:16:53

Right. Okay. Yeah. So I think the public sector was quite well-publicized. I didn't, I didn't go to any kind of backchannels or anything. It was through all the official career web portals that the public sector had worked with-

John Lim  1:17:05

Were they ever on LinkedIn?

Dennis Teo  1:17:06

I didn't go to LinkedIn. I did my own research on on the internet. So I went to specific websites, specific ministries, which had either their careers page. I realized that all of them link back to a common careers portal that the public sector uses

John Lim  1:17:22

Is that the careers future or careers.gov,sg?

Dennis Teo  1:17:26

Yeah, I think it's careers at- careers.gov.sg or something like that.

John Lim  1:17:31

Got it. Got it. Got it. But for the private sector ones also there as well?

Dennis Teo  1:17:35

No. So private sector, I think there are more options. It's a more diverse, our industry sector. So I did a couple of things that, you know, through LinkedIn was one, definitely. I went to individual companies, websites, I did research, I tried to connect with friends who may have some friends in those industries. So I tried a variety of different means. It wasn't just one particular homogeneous way to get into the sector.

John Lim  1:18:04

When you say, private sector, do you also mean government link sectors, for example, like your Temasek GICs I know, they have got quite a big CSR department and function. Do you take- do you try this-

Dennis Teo  1:18:20

No, those were not ones that I went for, because, honestly, this is just my perspective, but I felt like working for a government-linked corporation, in the roles that they had available would be sort of like a corporate job. But that was just my perspective. So I wanted something that really ties into the industry itself. You know, I didn't want a role like a business development or partnership manager at a GIC, which it sounds to me like a corporate job. I felt like you know, if I was in a private sector, for example, a company that maybe makes recyclable packaging that helps to create a more sustainable environment. Being a partnership manager there gets you more involved in work day to day rather than just like a corporate kind of environment. So I think that's why I steered away a little from those GICs.

John Lim  1:19:12

Do you still hold this view today?

Dennis Teo  1:19:15

I'll be honest, I don't think I have enough understanding to say for certain, I don't know, too many people in there, and I've never tried it. So to be fair, I, I will say that, I don't think my view has changed much. But it could very well, just be a lack of understanding on my part about what exactly they do in their day-to-day.

John Lim  1:19:35

So let's bring us back to the frustration that you felt at the interviews. And then what happened next? What do you do next?

Dennis Teo  1:19:44

Yeah, so you know, after a while, I got a little bit disappointed and about how things were going. All of these took maybe a good six months. You know, I went through applications, interviews, talking to people. It's not a sharp process. And I got to a point after six months where I felt like do I still want to continue to push forward or based on all the feedback that I got come to the realization that maybe it's just timing- I'm not, it's, it's just not the right timing for me. I needed to build up some competencies or experience in other areas first, or even just simply be more experienced in working in different places before I can, I can come back to this. So it got to a point where I think I told myself, there may be I have been faced so many rejections. I'm not giving up at that point in time. But looking at my own personal situation, at that time, I had a kid coming along. So with all of these added responsibilities that could potentially be coming, I decided that you know, maybe I'll just put this on hold for a moment. And I'll continue to do the job search for in this area, but also expanded to other areas as well, just so that, you know, I think it was also a point in time where I felt like I wanted to jump back into a job where I felt like I could contribute. It didn't have to be contribution in a particular sector, but you don't just contribute to something in that sense.

John Lim  1:21:15

Allow me to dig in further about the roles, right? We know that you didn't apply for a super high-level role and you said that you didn't want a job or role that's very corporate-like. Can you give us some examples of the roles that you applied for? Or what do you really want to do? Right, it may not be in the form of a role, but like the things day to day that you want to do.

Dennis Teo  1:21:39

Righ.? So are some of the rules that apply for we're like, for example, a counselor assistant, either or like a partnership manager for some of these private organizations who were looking for help to get volunteers or donations. So some of these nonprofit organizations- I also looked at companies with a particular mission in mind. So for example, they could be looking to reduce waste in their environment, or they could be trying to create products that help the disabled. So something like this, which I felt like had a mission and a purpose- those things that I wanted to be involved in. And in terms of my expectations of what the day-to-day will be, I felt I wanted to do something where I was closer to the ground, rather than just you know, at the planning level, talking about things but not really executing. I wanted to get my hands dirty. So that's why I think I gravitated to certain types of roles.

John Lim  1:22:39

Got it. I also want to at this point, recall our conversation that we had, right when I think we reconnected after you got back and I heard about your not-so-successful job hunting in the sector. Do you remember, I we chatted, I think in person could be a call could also be some text messages. I think I remember I provided some like, thinking right along, like startups, startups that, of course, commercial, but they have a purpose, right? For example, we try to reduce food waste and things like that. Yeah, I just want to bring it up in this conversation. And we're these roles or with this kind of setup, were you open to working in a startup, but a startup with a mission?

Dennis Teo  1:23:27

Right. Yeah, I actually yeah, thank you for that. You know, actually, you gave me a couple of contexts, I think you share with me some of your friends that are I think we're leaving the startup. I can't recall the name specifically. But I do recall that you shared with me a couple. So I was very grateful for that. And I did follow up on them, you know. And to be fair, these your friends, they did directly to certain more official ways to look for a particular role in what they're doing. So it actually came back to the same story after that, you know, when I submitted my CV there, there wasn't my first one. Yeah, it was no fault of you or your friend, you know, to be fair, it could just be that it got lost in the whole HR gap, black hole.

John Lim  1:24:17

No, no, I know, I know what happened. Okay. So I-

Dennis Teo  1:24:23

But I just wanted to be clear, you know, is- I don't blame anybody for that. You know, I was appreciative that you know,  your friends were willing to hear me out and at the end of the day gave me some guidance on where I should go. So no blame on anybody.

John Lim  1:24:38

Got it. Understood. I want to come back to this point. Like you were frustrated with the interviewers, right? Or rather, how you were frustrated at how it was going and their actions all about why you left. I want to throw you this question. The same people, imagine the same people that asked you all these questions they decided to hire you. Have you thought about how it will be like to work with people like that? And when I say it like that, I'm not trying to be judgmental, but people who have no ideas, have no experience, what your experience have not had those perspectives that you do or that you did. And I just wonder how, how you would be like to work with people who are quite different from you or hold different views from you. And whether I'm not saying that you I mean, it differs from people to people, some people feel that they need to work in an environment where people are similar, then things can get done easier. But for you, like if I could ask you to recall those people that you spoke with, they ask you those questions, could you even make a start at thinking about how the culture is like in those organizations? And if the roles were reversed, right, if the situation is reversed, they say, "Hey, you know what? We think you're a great talent, welcome."  Have you thought about how your life would be and how you would like to work, you will be like to work with these people and those organizations?

Dennis Teo  1:25:55

Honestly, I don't think I really thought that far. But generally speaking, I think if I joined a company, I think, for me, I don't really need to work with like-minded people, you know, I feel like everybody can have their professional perspective, and then they have their own personal life behind. So these two don't necessarily have to mix. I don't need to be great friends with somebody in order to achieve something that is purposeful at work. So I think for me, it was more important that I joined a place where the mission and the work that they're doing resonates with me. And I think if I did join the company, that's how I will go away, and I will just try to put my heart into just doing the work, you know, and I think if everybody in that organization has that same perspective that they are there to try to achieve that, regardless of your own personal perspective, your own personal notions or preconceptions, or your Yeah, so I think we should be able to separate that, at least for me, I don't think there needs to be any conflict in that.

John Lim  1:26:58

And I just want to make use good use of your time. For a time that we have together. I think two main questions, right. Number one is a how do you end up at your current company? And follow up to that is really popular, spend more time on the second question, which is like, what's your advice for people considering a career switch or web experience what you have gone through? I'm sure there are lessons that you would really do certain things differently. So first of all, how do you end up at your current company?

Dennis Teo  1:27:30

Yeah, so I was lucky, in a sense, one of my ex-colleagues actually reached out to me to say, you know, this job opportunity, this company that she heard off, she thinks that I might be suitable for it based on my previous experience, so she actually connected me to the recruiter, the hiring manager. And from there, things went smoothly, because I had the required experience and the required skill sets, and it all worked out. So that's how I ended up in my current role. So do your second questions, you know, what would I have done differently? Right? I think I on hindsight, I will probably try have tried to consider more different perspectives. Because I think I went into my job search initially. And by interviews with a mindset of what I have experienced, which is a more open a more liberal kind of perspective. But without fully factoring in like what you mentioned that to an average Singaporean, this might not be something that resonates or relates to them. And I really didn't consider that kind of perspective. So maybe there is what I should have, I would have done differently, I would have tried to maybe give it a little bit more thought to how somebody working their whole life in Singapore would review something like this. And in order for India, just as preparation for my interview. Now, the other thing that I think I would have done differently, and advices, having received all of those rejection feedback that you know, they're looking for somebody you've experienced in this industry, I think that's where maybe I would have tried to do a little bit more, maybe I tried to do some volunteer work, I did try a little bit here, and maybe, you know, take a course on something related, just to build up my competencies and my experience in this area, because it sounds like that's what they are looking for. So I think on hindsight, these will be the two things that I would have done differently. Now in terms of advice that I will give, you know, your listeners about career switches. Main thing, I think, like I want to mention this, I am by no means a successful story, because I did not achieve what I really set out to do in terms of the woods. Not yet. Not yet. Right. So I think that's important to know that you might have bumps along the way, you know, I might not have achieved what I want to do yet, but it doesn't mean I've given it up. And I have no regrets about taking that leap of faith. Because like you said, if you don't do it, you really never know I wouldn't have done that, you know, maybe I did have more experience in this field. Or I should have framed my reasons for leaving a little bit differently.  So all of these are learning experiences, which I think I would never have experienced if I didn't take that leap. So if you're thinking about something similar, you know, make sure you have the you are aligned in terms of the decision that you make with your family, I think that's very important. You need that family support, to take the leap of faith. And once you have that, you know, if you feel that confident enough that you're able to get by without a job, or you know, or face or you're prepared to face rejection, take that leap of faith, really just I always say it's a leap of faith because I strongly believe it after having done it, it's a bit of a jump into the unknown, but you have to be brave. And I think one thing that I would recommend is be willing to step out of the comfort zone, it's very easy to stay in a comfortable place, and just daydream about, you know what it might be like. But once you are out of that comfort zone, you are forced to take action. And that's where you, you learn more about yourself, and you will learn more about what you want to do.

John Lim  1:31:07

Wonderful. I was gonna ask you if you could have a billboard with any message, you want to broadcast what you will be, but I think I kind of got an answer there, but I'm gonna ask you anyway if you could have a billboard with any message you want to broadcast, what would it be?

Dennis Teo  1:31:23

I think, maybe take that leap of faith, but be willing to be humble enough to learn from the experience. And just understand that it doesn't mean that if you take that leap of faith and you don't achieve what you want, it means that you have failed at it. I think there's a lot of times the view that a lot of people in society places on individuals that, you know, if we try something and it didn't work out, you know, you feel that it, but I don't think we should look at it that way. Because there you always learn something from whatever you do. Yeah. And it might just be the wrong timing right now, you know, it might not work out for you now. But who knows, maybe in five to 10 years, if you have this conversation again, I'm gonna be doing something that I really wanted to do at that time. Yeah.

John Lim  1:32:09

And I also want to ask you, like, do you think it's more of a comment, or whether there's my perspective there, or I was wondering about that maybe sometimes our goals do change as we proceed in different life stages as we go through the years with more experiences. And it doesn't mean that if we didn't hit our goals that we had in, we're now 20s means we're a failure for us our lives. I don't know what you think of this, but I also think that it is okay to evolve together, right? For your, for your goals and your dreams to evolve with you. But without making the excuse for you not to do any action. right to say the eyes. Okay, this will pass. So I, I also think that it is okay, that down the road now that you're a father, you've got a bigger responsibility. Maybe your goals will change?

Dennis Teo  1:33:01

Maybe? Definitely. Yeah. Because I think you're right, you know, if you asked me to look back now, what I might go. So in my 20s, and what my goals are in my 30s, and what my goals are now, they're vastly different. So you're absolutely right, you know that your goals and your perspective will definitely involve me from my personal perspective over time. So, yeah, don't be afraid about you know, it doesn't mean that you have to have a set goal that you have go for it. It's a winding long and winding road, you know, you will have three centers, it doesn't not everything has to be a straight line.

John Lim  1:33:36

Yeah. And I also want to say a few things about like, I mean, you said a few times now in this conversation about your not as successful story. I, I also think there's that there's that need to sort of relook at what is the definition of success. It means different things to different people. And I think you also said something about sometimes society as a success definition. That may not be for everyone. And I to me, in my personal opinion, I thought your success story, because you did what you wanted to do, even though it was difficult, by most standards, right? That you were in a comfortable job, and in my opinion, the ability to move when it's so uncomfortable to do so. I think that's a sign of success to me, at least you've succeeded to move out of that situation.  I mean, you were at the peak of a career, you're a lot more going and if you were stayed there, but yet you were brave enough to take the leap of faith. And I think most people probably wouldn't even start thinking about the things that you thought about. So to me, success is about being brave, being able to do what you want to do. At the same time being prepared with taking the risks, being prepared, like you said, to be humble, and to learn that you may not always get what you want down the road. So, to me, yeah, I define success differently. And I think everyone should also take reading about their own definition of success. And I couldn't be more proud of you know what you did, to be honest with you. And it doesn't matter where you end up in the end, of course, you would have wanted the appointment, you really wanted to learn something in social work or social enterprise sector? You didn't get it. But so what you know, and I think that was a good lesson you learned? Yeah, so you want to say something?

Dennis Teo  1:35:42

I think I think you're right, you know, by the definition of success, and, and I think it's probably a question that you use for your audience as well, you know, to really think about what their definition of success will be. It doesn't have to be what everybody else's definition is. Like you say, you know, you view my whole experience as a success because of certain things. Somebody else might look at, I hear my story and say, don't no, no, this guy is not successful at all, because he bla bla bla. So it's really to think about what your definition your own definition is, rather than just take what everybody else is saying as the definition of success.

John Lim  1:36:18

And I can't thank you enough, Dennis, I think you're an inspiration to me. I don't say often, I think I see it. And I just thought your story is some story that needs to be shared to the people around this age. Yeah, I thank you very much.

Dennis Teo  1:36:35

Yeah, no problem, dry. Thanks for the opportunity. I hope, you know, my experience can help people to get some perspective. I mean, I don't have very high hopes that you know, this is going to change people's life. But sometimes you just need that different perspective or hearing what somebody else experienced to help you crystallize your thoughts. Hey, you know, thanks for the opportunity. I really appreciate it. I enjoyed the conversation. So yeah, thanks a lot.

John Lim  1:37:04

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